Decision: Proposal To Eliminate "Leash-Lock" In 90-Min Elimination Hunts

[Jerry Moll]

This proposal, was suggested to eliminate the possibility of "Leash-Lock" during 90-Minute casts, in an effort to offset the possibility of a handler’s dog being on the leash for too much of the cast to compete effectively. As planned, we requested opinions concerning this rule change proposal from PKC Staff Members, the PKC Executive Committee and other PKC Members. Following these discussions, It has been decided to continue with the 2018 Fall Super Stakes Championships and World Championship as planned without any rule changes specifically designed to offset 90-Minute cast hunting time. This will give all hunters, the host club and the PKC Staff two, one week-long, elimination style events in which to analyze exactly how the 90-Minute casts operate under the current PKC Hunt Rules. As with any PKC rule or policy decision, some members will like this plan and some will not. Those members who are not in favor of the 90-Minute cast, please know that we do hear you loud and clear, we do understand your concerns and we will be watching to see what changes need to be made, if any.

Here is some of the feedback that have been given, leading to this proposal being tabled until after the 2018 Fall Super Stakes Championships and World Championship:
•The 90-Minute casts with a "No Leash-Lock" change, could in fact be more challenging for guides, landowners and the host club than 120-Minute casts with the “leash-locking” possibility
•The 90-Minute casts may give some older members a reason to participate again
•Every cast is unique and with the high percentage of independent dogs nowadays, exactly how often all dogs are declared treed causing “leash-lock”, needs to be evaluated
•With a "No Leash-Lock" change, a handler will more likely be required to turn their dog loose in an unsafe area
•A "No Leash-Lock" change in the hunt rules cannot stand on its own; there are many other rules that will affected and may need to be changed
•Rules allowing the scoring of trees out of order would have to be eliminated
•Rules allowing handlers to go tie their dogs at split trees could complicate getting all trees scored with the required three handlers in early rounds, under open rules
•Rules requiring a handler to turn his/her dog loose after one minute following tree scoring, regardless of the situation that they are in, would need looked at
•Time-out rules would have to be examined to determine how they need to be changed due to scattered dogs, if at all
•There seems to be a snowball affect with the "No Leash-Lock" proposal with many additional requests for rule changes to; tree points, strike points and the babbling dog rules
•This "No Leash-Lock" proposal was previously presented to the full body of PKC National Directors on Thursday July 23, 2015 and was voted down by 2 Yes/26 No votes
•The next PKC Rule Change period where the full body of National Directors vote on Hunt Rule updates is coming up in 2019

Some of you may remember that the “No Leash-Lock” rules were first introduced at another *KC in January of 2005. Based upon its early popularity, this rule was implemented at PKC on a trial basis for the 2007 Pro Hunt season. After the first Pro Hunt of the year, this trial was abruptly halted and was rejected for the remaining Pro Hunts, due to it not meshing up well with the rest of the PKC Rules.

Thank you for your understanding and professionalism as we work through this.

[Brandon Coselman]

Why were the members not given the opportunity to vote on this 90 minute stuff to start with?! I, like many others (judging by their post) am not paying a full entry fee to hunt in 3/4 of a hunt!!

[Chris Saunders]

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement! Chalk up ANOTHER advantage to the dog that leaves me barking running absolutely nothing but his mouth then goes .75mi before he starts hunting.

As far evaluating the impact of reducing cast from 120min to 90 minutes here's the result... we're losing 30min of hunt time... PERIOD! I was not in favor of reducing the hunt time but as I said in a previous post.... I could live with it if I was able to recast my dog instead of keeping him on the lead walking .75mi to one that could have treed one within 400yds and left me babbling.

I've hunted and guided cast under BOTH sets of rules. My experience is, typically the dogs don't go any farther/deeper but you make more trees. What happens is one or two get treed fairly close and one or two deep. If mine gets treed first or second instead of leading him .75 I recast him and then walk .75mi into theirs. But while I'm walking to theirs, mine gets treed again back around where we started. I get a chance to win by treeing more coon instead of getting beat because I'm on the lead.

Regarding any rules changes required to implement recasting ... I'm confused what rule changes would be necessary? You still score dogs in order! If you score them out of order you can't recast. If hunting under open rules and we need you to stay with the cast to score a tree... you stay with the cast, then go handle your dog. THAT'S HOW OUR RULES READ RIGHT NOW.

How about we start rewarding the dog that gets treed first, instead of the one that gets treed the farthest.


How you can adopt a rule mandating 90min cast without also adopting the recasting rule which is tailored to compensate for having a shorter cast IS BEYOND ME!

[Steve Yant]

I would like to know why the National Directors were not asked to vote on this .In years past all Directors voted on things like this not just a handful of"YES" men .I am currently a Natonal Director an catch all kinds of heck from members of my state when stuff like this occurs .Makes a guy wonder why he evens tries to help anymore.

[Trey Perrin]

Jerry Moll tell all of us why the hunts where changed to 90 minutes and why was this decision made without a vote from the national directors? I think several hundred members would also like to know and have been asking to hear why.

[John Granberry]

Good enough I'll see you in October.

[Dylan Hovey]

Please can we just go back to 2 hours.

[Harry Watkins]

I've been contacted by quite a few people that's aren't very happy with the 90 min casts. Let me start by saying that I appreciate all the hard work done by all involved. I believe the biggest complaint I've heard is that no input from the hunters that pay the entries went into this decision. I truly believe that if the 2 hours casts were an issue then something should've been done as soon as last year's world hunt was over. I know guys that paid nomination fees to hunt the world hunt this year with the idea they were competing in a 2 hour event . Something absolutely needs to be done since the no leash lock rule had been shot down. I have had conversations that mentioned using the strike rule that AKC uses. It sounds like a simple solution to a problem if your dogs are going to remain leash locked. I've always been a supporter of increasing the tree points for a dog that trees the coon so that may also be something to look at. In the past we have tried rule changes on a temporary basis. Why not give one or both of these two options a chance.

[Brandon Coselman]

I truly believe that if the 2 hours casts were an issue then something should've been done as soon as last year's world hunt was over. I know guys that paid nomination fees to hunt the world hunt this year with the idea they were competing in a 2 hour event.

I have two nominated with their money won and I can guarantee you that neither will be there unless something is done about this change!

[John Lively]

Harry I have always said first tree should be more than first strike.But that will never happen in PKC.PKChas always been the best KC but there need to be some major changes or I don't know if we will have the KC we all have loved for so long 10 years from now.If They not going to do away with the leash lock rule they need to move the tree 125 and leave the count down the same but that will never happen.We as member voted for National Director's for a reason and PKC needs to involve them,for a reason and that's because they know what us hunters want..And not someone sitting behind a computer making the calls for there will being.We as hunters keep it going so if we just stop going to the hunts maybe try will listen , to at least the NATIONAL DIRECTORS.Now I have voiced my opinion and I'm done with this conversation..Good hunting and God Bless you all.

[Harry Watkins]

I truly believe that if the 2 hours casts were an issue then something should've been done as soon as last year's world hunt was over. I know guys that paid nomination fees to hunt the world hunt this year with the idea they were competing in a 2 hour event.

I have two nominated with their money won and I can guarantee you that neither will be there unless something is done about this change!

Ya it's a shame that people won't be going. PKC is the only organization I compete in and I and I hope they consider some of these proposals posted in this board. They're the best organization going and I would sure hate to see that change.

[Harry Watkins]

Harry I have always said first tree should be more than first strike.But that will never happen in PKC.PKChas always been the best KC but there need to be some major changes or I don't know if we will have the KC we all have loved for so long 10 years from now.If They not going to do away with the leash lock rule they need to move the tree 125 and leave the count down the same but that will never happen.We as member voted for National Director's for a reason and PKC needs to involve them,for a reason and that's because they know what us hunters want..And not someone sitting behind a computer making the calls for there will being.We as hunters keep it going so if we just stop going to the hunts maybe try will listen , to at least the NATIONAL DIRECTORS.Now I have voiced my opinion and I'm done with this conversation..Good hunting and God Bless you all.

John the 125 tree points was narrowly shot down at the last rules meeting we had 3 plus years ago. I'm hopeful someday it will go through to reward the dog that trees those coons....tired of listening to those barking dogs carry 100 points on those ghost tracks .

[Randy Basson]

I don't like it but that how it works . unfair advantage for automatic first strike dog by shorting the hunt time you cant compete on the chain..... it got vote down so see yall in OCTOBER be ready to strike them quick...

[John Brundege]

I've been contacted by quite a few people that's aren't very happy with the 90 min casts. Let me start by saying that I appreciate all the hard work done by all involved. I believe the biggest complaint I've heard is that no input from the hunters that pay the entries went into this decision. I truly believe that if the 2 hours casts were an issue then something should've been done as soon as last year's world hunt was over. I know guys that paid nomination fees to hunt the world hunt this year with the idea they were competing in a 2 hour event . Something absolutely needs to be done since the no leash lock rule had been shot down. I have had conversations that mentioned using the strike rule that AKC uses. It sounds like a simple solution to a problem if your dogs are going to remain leash locked. I've always been a supporter of increasing the tree points for a dog that trees the coon so that may also be something to look at. In the past we have tried rule changes on a temporary basis. Why not give one or both of these two options a chance.

Thanks for pushing this Harry. Complaining without offering suggestions to remedy the issue is just whining. You're offering multiple suggestions. I for one really like the ideas of no leash-lock or 125 tree points both.

I personally don't mind a 90 minute hunt if my dog gets the opportunity to be loose. The idea of being leash-locked for a majority of the hunt time has me very disappointed. At Nationals and World both last year, both great events, the dog spent over an hour of hunt time on the leash. I still plan to attend, but after the 1st time of being leash-locked for half or more of hunt will be last night there.

[Harry Watkins]

I've been contacted by quite a few people that's aren't very happy with the 90 min casts. Let me start by saying that I appreciate all the hard work done by all involved. I believe the biggest complaint I've heard is that no input from the hunters that pay the entries went into this decision. I truly believe that if the 2 hours casts were an issue then something should've been done as soon as last year's world hunt was over. I know guys that paid nomination fees to hunt the world hunt this year with the idea they were competing in a 2 hour event . Something absolutely needs to be done since the no leash lock rule had been shot down. I have had conversations that mentioned using the strike rule that AKC uses. It sounds like a simple solution to a problem if your dogs are going to remain leash locked. I've always been a supporter of increasing the tree points for a dog that trees the coon so that may also be something to look at. In the past we have tried rule changes on a temporary basis. Why not give one or both of these two options a chance.

Thanks for pushing this Harry. Complaining without offering suggestions to remedy the issue is just whining. You're offering multiple suggestions. I for one really like the ideas of no leash-lock or 125 tree points both.

I personally don't mind a 90 minute hunt if my dog gets the opportunity to be loose. The idea of being leash-locked for a majority of the hunt time has me very disappointed. At Nationals and World both last year, both great events, the dog spent over an hour of hunt time on the leash. I still plan to attend, but after the 1st time of being leash-locked for half or more of hunt will be last night there.

Thanks John.i believe if the 90 minute casts are the way of the future then we need to make some changes. I'm like you, the first 300 dollar walk I have to take with my dog on the leash is going to make it hard to swallow. I love coming to Salem for the hunts and PKC is all I hunt in. I would hate to see this change the attendance of theses great hunts.